Posted by MQracing [ 151.197.219.86 ] on September 17, 2005 at 09:02:51:
In Reply to: One more example posted by Wayne Parham on September 17, 2005 at 08:04:27:
Hi Wayne:
great questions.
you asked;
:::Some of my speakers, even some of the better ones, are just an Eminence or JBL driver is a box. Now I don't want you guys to copy 'em, but then again, it's kind of hard for me to claim ownership of an implementation. An example is a JBL 2226 in a 4.0ft3 box tuned to 40Hz. Can I really claim that as a protected design and jump other people for making it?:::
Here's my sense...
on a truly generic design... a plain jane 4 cubic foot box and the specific choice of drivers X and Y... these are sold as stand alone items from a range of sources... it's harder to see any claim to a strong sense of exclusivity.
but... if it's truly generic product.... and a person wishes to compete with you then they should have no need to "ride on your coattails"... you might still find it objectionable, on ethical grounds, that they use your company name and market it as a "copy" of your product. Illegal...probably not... but is it ethical? And much depends on the context... and there are many existing cabinet plans in clearly in the public domain and many speaker design programs that will kick out recommended drivers, box sizes, bass alignment, etc.
:::Now it does have a good crossover, something I'm proud of as being original.:::
you created that crossover, right? And it's an original design. Perhaps not earthshattering in novelty and, let us say, inelgible for patent protection....
now, someone comes on ART and sez... hey I'll sell you a "reverse engineered" copy of wayne's speaker complete with a copy of his dynamite crossover design...
too far... theft has just occurred. And if he got this information from reverse engineering your speaker then he has pirated your design illicitly... patent or no patent. And he's double the snake if he boasts of ripping off your design... and that he can do it with impunity since your crossover does not have patent protection.
now... what if he came up with a similar design... wholly on his own.... no copying or intentional piracy of your design. First thought is.... then he has no need to mention your company's name... and that he should focus on what he perceives to be the merits of his own crossover design. If, on the other hand, he still wants to "trade off of your good will" and use your name and etc.... it's a bit sleazy to my way of doing biz.
allow me to give an example... of what I think I mean....
We have in the Peerless archives some neat designs for some very famous classic audio companies... as just one example we have complete output transformer designs for both the Marantz 8B and the Marantz 9... we could take a fly on the coattails of Marantz good will and advertise these as designs for the Marantz 8B and the Marantz 9... but I would never do it. I will not identify the part number publicly. If we did make that output trans (it was designed by Peerless engineering) I wouldn't identify it as a "clone", "copy", or even a "functional equivalent" of the outputs that marantz used. I don't have permission to use their name and using it to profit myself would be unfair.
In the case of (I know someone will bring it up)... say Altec amps... the altec schematics clerly identify by part number which Peerless trans was used where. If you called me and said you needed all the tranneys to make a dead balls copy of say the Altec 1570 amp that you were going to exploit commercially... I'd decline (I am almost certain... since this is a theoretical case devoid of all the real considerations)....
say you called and said Mikey... I'm going to make hotrod copies of the Marantz 8... answer is NO. I don't care how much money you offer.
:::But even it is pretty simple, made using only a dozen parts or so, hardly something I can consider as trade secret stuff.z:::
take a look at... just as an example... say Allen Wright's commericial PP amp... as I understand it... he has spent years developing this circuit and refining it to his liking. There is probably nothing in it that is wholly unique or that could not be arrived at INDPENDENTLY by another designer who set down the same path....
but... if you take on of allen's commercial amps and tear it down and copy it... then you are ripping him off...
if you copy it and you divulge it to the public without his permission then, at a bare bones minimum, your sleazy. Question is should a forum allow someone to divulge say Allens circuit design without his permission?
:::I take advantage of the information by promoting it, actually opening the books to give myself some exposure. I guess one could say I'm free to do that 'cause it's my stuff. I could have kept tight lipped and that was my choice. But my point is, where's the line?:::
again, depending on the context... if your the creator of something unique... then it is your IP and your decision whether to give it away, sell it, or just put it in your archives and do nothing with it commercially.
take Nelson Pass as an example... he has done over a 20 plus year period of time... several circuit designs that he as freely put in the public domain. Partly he benefits from the good will thereby created... and partly it is a way for him to introduce some basic concepts to the marketplace. But generally, following that public domain circuit, is a commericial product that incorporates some of the concepts and ideas of the public domain design... but perhaps with some addtl refinements... but Nelson treats these as proprietary.
If you take his commercial designs (not in the public domain by his choice) and you pirate his design (patent or no patent) your ripping him off. If you then use his good name to promote your copy... your ripping him off.
again, these are or may be ethical dilemmas as opposed to (notice I say may be... I'm not a lawyer)... but even within that ethical domain... forums and information providers\hosts need to decide if they will allow say someone to post up (assume it not patented) a commericial proprietary design of an Allen Wright or a Nelson Pass when such a design was and is clearly identified as a hot rodded pirated copy of another person's IP.
And again...one sure fire way to smell that something foul is going on is to witness and see that the person is using Nelson Pass and\or his company's good will to get a free ride (coattails) in the marketplace.
re: speaker cooling plug...
:::But once it became a reality and everyone could see how much it boosted performance, immediately, everyone started copying it.:::
this is a bit tougher... exact copies... or took the broad concept of a phase\cooling plug and sat down and did up a design of their own?
if they were exact copies (or exacting enough that the clear intent was to copy yours with say it being purple in color instead of blue)... then they are lazy at a minimum and it still smells to my nose.
again... should a forum\information host allow someone to come on and state that they can offer a copy of a Pi copy phase\cooling plug... nope... why your coattails?
Copying someone's designs may be bad enough.... bragging about it and publicly identifying your victim definitely adds injury to insult. because now... if the shyster cut corners or changed the design and the plug makes the speaker sound really terrible... guess who else by association gets a black eye? Pi does.
So... Pi gets no benefits at all and is put into a position (especially if the pirate names him as his victim) that he must shoulder the ill will of a product\company that he had nothing to really do with.
hope I've added some substance to the dialogue.
mike
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